Episode 6

About

In this second episode of a 2-part episode, Chris and Soren are joined by their two younger brothers to discuss the unique experiences and valuable lessons learned from growing up with older queer siblings. They share how these relationships shaped their understanding of diversity and acceptance, providing a heartfelt look into the dynamics of a supportive family environment and the importance of allyship within the family.

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*Please note that this episode contains sensitive behavioral health topics such as suicide and substance use. If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis, please contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling 988 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.

**This podcast is for information and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered health advice. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.

Transcript

Chris:
Welcome back, everyone. Welcome to the Inspired Insights Podcast. This week, we’re continuing our two-part episode featuring Soren and I’s younger brothers.

If you haven’t already listened to part one, I’m going to recommend that you start there. Once you’re caught up, jump back into the conversation with us.

The Inspired Insights Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered health advice.

This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.

Soren:
Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental illness, suicide, and substance use. If you are experiencing a behavior health crisis or need support, please contact the 988-Suicide-and-Crisis-Lifeline by calling 988 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.

Bodie:
Me and Soren, at least in the young age, were very, very different. Me and Soren were like best friends for years and years and years growing up. We were constantly together.

We were always hanging out. It was me, Soren, Nick, and Tim, who are our cousins. We were always hanging out.

Every summer, we were all best friends and everything like that growing up through. I feel like that was another thing that made Soren’s mental health and everything like that, the downfall of that, so much harder was the loss of that friendship because you were not only losing a brother, but you were losing a best friend. Those experiences changed a lot.

Then Soren coming out of Soren’s depression, everything like that, I feel like our relationship still degraded because there was a lot of hurt between the two of us, which changed the way we were interacting and everything like that. Just those experiences that we had now shared and everything completely changed the relationship between us. Coming further, closer to now, our relationship is definitely healing a lot more.

We are becoming friends once again like that, but it’s still not that original shape that it once was.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
I think I did a lot of the damage there because I was angry. I was sad. I would take a lot of it out on Bodhi.

We weren’t fisticuffs very often, but I would always, because Bodhi’s immediate response back then was physical violence, and my immediate response was needling.

Chris:
Yeah. I think I was the needler, totally.

Soren:
I would intentionally goad Bodhi into grabbing a weapon. Then I’d call the parents, and then Bodhi’s about to attempt to assail me with a weapon. I’m just sitting, look at me.

Chris:
Oh, I can relate, Soren.

Soren:
I’m so innocent. I’m just sitting here. Bodhi’s trying to hurt me, but it was mostly my fault.

I think the recovery of our relationship was hurt to some extent by the amount of scar tissue built up. I felt like I couldn’t talk to Bodhi anymore because I had done so many bad things to her.

Chris:
Well, like you said, you had the guilt.

Soren:
Yeah. I still do. I just feel really guilty.

Then whenever me and Bodhi get into a tough, I’ll end up sitting there sad because I’m doing the exact thing that I did when I was an asshole.

Chris:
Yeah. What I think I know about your relationship and your lives now is you have your unique group of friends. Bodhi has your unique group of friends, and there’s still a lot of crossover.

You all might hike together or walk the tracks together or do an overnight together. Go ahead.

Soren:
Yeah. I think now during the summers and stuff, there is more crossover because obviously a lot of Bodhi’s friends are hanging out by the lake. I’m also there, and I’ll bring my friends out to the lake a lot.

I think it’s definitely like, it’s fun. The more Bodhi’s are at a party, the littier it is. Yeah.

Nathan:
Littier. Yeah.

Soren:
I think that has also been a step in healing our relationship.

Chris:
Yeah. That’s where I was going with that. As you are able to have your own lives but also feel very comfortable crossing over those lives, that relationship starts to form in a different way.

Does it feel that way for you?

Bodie:
I mean, yeah. It’s definitely a different thing, but I don’t know how much of that is because of the experience behind it, but as much as we’ve just grown and changed. We’re different people than we were five, six, seven, eight years ago.

It’s hard to compare your young childhood to your adolescence to everything like that. I don’t know how you’re supposed to compare your five-year-old thoughts to you’re now maturing or turning into adult thoughts. I don’t know.

That’s hard to figure out where the difference is and where the similarity is.

Nathan:
Well, I think the opportunity that you have when you’re in a family is that you can have struggle that moves you apart, but unlike maybe a friend that may kind of go when you’re in a… and maybe not all families are like this, but it sounds like in our collective families, you maintain together. The relationship can evolve and grow despite any time period that would have driven two people who aren’t in a family apart.

I mean, I look at you now and then you help me out immensely with everything from protector to counsel to very specific, tangible things that I need, favors that I might need or whatever. You know, our relationship looks now very recognizable to a very traditional older brother, younger brother.

Chris:
Yeah, I completely agree.

I think, again, if you had told me in fourth grade as I’ve got these bloody scars down the side of my…

Nathan:
I’ve got bruises on my back. You’re not a total victim.

Chris:
True, true. But again, if you had told us then, I would never have bought it. And I think it kind of follows what you were saying is that who we were then, who we were in college, going to college around the same time and who we are as adults are completely different yet that sibling bond thread still kind of pulls through all of them.

Nathan:
For sure. And if we have time, I’d like to get into what the experience was for Bodie and maybe share my experience during the coming out and sort of how that felt for you.

Bodie:
Well, Sorin was always very obviously queer, right? So even when Sorin said the words like, I’m gay and came out, it was no surprise to anyone in our family.

Chris:
Do you actually remember a conversation? Is there a conversation that you remember Sorin having with you? Was there a moment of actual coming out?

Bodie:
I don’t remember one. No. Yeah.

It was just kind of always obviously on the table that that was, that was that. So it wasn’t really an experience for me. It was like, this has always been my brother.

Chris:
It’s in the reality.

Bodie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Do you remember Sorin a time where you, you might not have said those words, but maybe you referenced an attraction to a boy or a character on TV or a figure?

Soren:
Yeah. I think like the, the first conversation that I remember having with my mom about it, which like I say is like my coming out.

Chris:
Yeah. I love this.

Soren:
Was she was sitting in her room watching TV and I came in and I think that there was a something going on at the TV that I was like, wow, I like that.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
And then I had a brief conversation with my mom and she primarily reacted with concern. Right. She was like, this could prove an issue.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
But that really is like the only proper example of coming out that I like, obviously I’ve told other people that I’m gay through innuendos, but I think it’s fairly apparent.

Chris:
Yeah. Nor in your story. It’s just, I think then the reality you’ve always known.

Soren:
Yeah.

Chris:
And to some level I would suggest to you, your parents have probably, probably knew that as well. And for whatever reason you see, you leaned into it and it just became a known reality of your household, but it’s all you kind of remember. Hmm.

Soren:
Yeah. Especially because both of us were so young too. Right.

Good point. Like, I have to be honest. I don’t remember a lot of my childhood.

And I think a lot of that comes as a result of when I was unwell, intentionally scrubbing it.

Chris:
Right.

Soren:
But I just, I don’t remember a ton of what was happening.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
I obviously, I remember how close our relationship was hanging out with our cousins every single day of the entire summer, every summer.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
But as Bodhi was saying, it’s very difficult to compare and contrast.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
Because of how distorted my memories are of that time and how different my perspective was.

Chris:
Sure. When you think about Soren, this, Bodhi’s point about, it’s just kind of always been there. It’s kind of always been assumed.

Do you think at some level it was easier that way? It was easier not having to say the words out loud to all these different individuals in your life?

Soren:
Yeah, totally. But also it brings up difficulty because when people can look at you and listen to you and be like, oh, that’s a gay person.

Chris:
Like you’re wearing a sign or strobe light over your head.

Soren:
It also creates a lot of friction sometimes. Right. So I would say yes, it’s easier because that’s an awkward conversation to have.

And obviously, I don’t know, I don’t go shouting to the rooftops that I’m gay. I go shouting and people are like, oh, you’re gay. Yeah.

I think it certainly made it more organic, natural, a little easier with people that I trust and are totally chill, but also a little harder with those individuals that maybe I wouldn’t want my sexuality to be disclosed to.

Chris:
From a safety perspective.

Soren:
Yeah. But it is disclosed to them purely as a result of who I am.

Chris:
I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts because in my mind, when I watch the movie playback of who I was as a kid, there was no doubt in anybody’s mind. I think some of our family members would say when those words were said out loud, it was like, where have you been for the last 18, 20, 30 years? It was very apparent, but my story I think is a little different given the age that I was when I formally did that.

But I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Nathan:
I think from my perspective, right before you came out, there was a feeling like, will you just get on with it? Right.

There was a particular girlfriend you had at the time. Oh, right. That was like, it was just clearly a mismatch.

Right. And so it was almost comical. I don’t want to say that being dismissive, but when I look back on it, it almost was comical.

It was the end of the fumbling. Right, right, right, right. And so when you came out, and I’m trying to convince myself that I remember the phone call, but I don’t know that I do.

But when you came out, I just remember feeling so much happiness for you. And maybe it was because we were feeling like, just get on with it. But it was like, oh, Chris is now going to be able to bring his genuine self to everything he does.

There’s no more of this secret or no more of this pretending. And a sort of a feeling like there was an understanding, but not one. It wasn’t my experience of how hard that must have been.

Right. And so just, I know I was very relieved for you and happy for you. I know your mother was very concerned about you.

Your mom had some stereotypes about what gay men your age did at night and those dangerous situations they put themselves in. Right. And the absence of grandchildren.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. And so I remember having the same conversations with her back then that I had the other night of, yeah, come on, you just, you got to get over this. Right.

That’s right. So I think my experience for your coming out was an incredibly positive, happy one. Yeah.

Chris:
And that’s how I remember it too. I also don’t necessarily remember. I, I did a very long staged approach of this group of friends new, then this group of friends.

Why? Then a couple siblings. Why did you choose that approach?

You know, well, Sorin and I talk about the word shame often in some of our conversations and how that kind of always is in the background at different levels. And as a therapist and a social worker, I also know it’s always there and in the background when I’m working with other people. And so the same is true for me.

It was, it was shame. It was wanting things to be different and that the girlfriend, which you referenced, who I have an amazing relationship with today. And we’ve actually recently just talked about this through some of the conversations in our first season of the podcast that she’s listened to and been able to really open up some really important conversations with she and I, but anyway.

Nathan:
And I meant no slight towards her.

Chris:
No, not at all. Not at all.

But she is yeah, she’s good with it. And so, but I think it was what’s the, what’s the metaphor I’m thinking, you know, like you bait a hook and maybe you cast it out, see how that works. If it’s successful, then you might bait a couple more hooks and if it’s not successful, then you put the fishing box away and carry on.

So it was, it was, it was trial and error

Nathan:
So you were hoping to get back allies.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah. If, if the people I told also felt like I was okay, then I was going to be okay.

I think that was the perspective.

Soren:
Yeah. To pivot the conversation slightly, me and you, Chris, obviously have quite boisterous out there personalities and we are both the older sibling. Right.

I know that me overshadowing Bodhi has been an issue or at least something that’s very prevalent because I did, and to some extent still do, require more maintenance from my parents. And I also take up more space in a room and I’m also competitive with Bodhi. So I was wondering, I know obviously Bodhi talked about how my taking up resources helped him create his strong sense of individualism, but what was it like for you to, to develop your own identities in the shadow of a louder, older sibling?

Bodie:
That’s a great question. It’s definitely a hard question to answer. There’s a lot to process behind that.

I mean, when you were struggling, you were definitely trying to change yourself, right? You were, you disliked who you were as an individual. And I think that kind of carried throughout the family at the same time though.

At that time you saw, I lost a bunch of weight, started at like, started to work out, blah, blah, blah. And I think a lot of that was your self-doubt and everything carried on into me. Um, where, yeah, I was, I was obviously a very privileged, cis, straight white man.

And I was like clear, it was clear to myself that I was obviously more normal, but there was still a difference. And with the confusion of you, it brought confusion to me. So I obviously was trying to figure out myself as an individual too.

And I ended up leading towards the more jock, like, as you would say, stereotypical jock of an individual. And now that time I kind of was messing around with who I was to now figure out, like, I would say that I’m pretty confident in who I am as an individual now. And I understand who I am and I understand my own thought process, everything like that.

But at the time I didn’t. And with you being such a bold character and pulling so much attention from the family, it allowed me to do so much more and figure myself out at a much younger age than a lot of other people because I was able to experiment and everything like that and not have to worry about the viewpoints of you or our parents and everything like that.

Chris:
Do you feel like you’re flying under the radar and still today you’re able to fly under that radar more? Yeah.

Bodie:
Yeah. I would still say that I can do as I please and not see that parenting that I want at times when I don’t want that parenting.

Chris:
Right. That’s right.

Bodie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. How about you, Nate? I’ll be curious your thoughts about space in the room and being able to find yourself in the, maybe a shadow.

Nathan:
See, I think I had the opposite.

Chris:
Yeah.

Nathan:
That’s what I was thinking too. I think I attempted to take up space. Yeah.

To be stereotypically heterosexual, to be stereotypically popular, to be…

Chris:
To balance. You were the yin to the yang I was throwing out.

Nathan:
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it was, I don’t know that there was a lot of intention behind it at the time.

I think I just saw the struggle that you were going through, maybe the struggle that you just had with other people and sought to avoid that for myself. I would say that wasn’t healthy as I look back on it. I think those are the masks you learn to wear.

Yeah. That aren’t your genuine self. Hanging out with the in crowd got me drinking at a much too early age.

Right. That I’ve had to deal with. Right.

Later in life. So, those, not bringing your authentic self to all your situations. Yeah.

Generally leads to no good.

Chris:
Regardless of sexuality or gender identity.

Soren:
Yeah.

Chris:
Exactly. Yeah. That’s about how I thought you were going to respond to that.

That’s what I read. That’s jiving with my memories as well. And again, back then it looked like it was coming so easy for you.

But I think the time period that we’re talking about, this is the hallmark of puberty and adolescence, is awkwardness, insecurity, inner conflict, trying to figure out who you are and how you fit into the world, wanting to be cared for and at the same time wanting to be independent and not get attention from the parental units, a little bit of both. And so, I think when you, in the best of times, adolescence sucks. And then you throw, whether it’s us trying to figure out who we are and some of the crap that came with that, or living in a household watching people struggle in their own ways and trying to deal with that on top of your own stuff.

It’s an awful, awful part of our lives.

Nathan:
But the encouragement I’d give to anybody who’s maybe listening to this that’s at that place currently that’s going through it, it’s if you stick with it, you get to a good place. And then when you’re at a good place, you look back on the path that got you there and you’re going to be grateful for it.

Chris:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s sort of what your insight was that kicked off our episode today, was that those mistakes and…

Bodie:
Yeah. The mistakes and wrong doings are looked at in the present as a negative. Right.

But once you move forward and you look back, you’re like, oh, well, that was definitely a negative, but there’s a lot more positive that came from it.

Chris:
100%. And I would say that Nate and I’s relationship today was forged. We are, we have the relationship today because of some of the not so great stuff of the past that are in the moment, it was awful for different perspectives on that.

Nathan:
But we had shared traumas together that are very unique to you and I.

Chris:
That’s right. That’s right.

So I think that’s one of the things I’m taking from this conversation as well is it does get better. We’re works in progress. The better days are still ahead.

And I’m just hopeful that through the start of this conversation, as I look at you and your brother, Soren, that you can continue these conversations maybe, and maybe this kind of open the door to keep those conversations going off camera when you can maybe lean into the conversation a little bit more personally.

Soren:
Yeah, I think that people tend to interpret change as negative.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
And the times that we often view as typically negative are just times of great change.

Chris:
Yeah.

Soren:
Like middle school or freshman year of college. Right. And beyond.

And beyond. And I think the greatest opportunity that being siblings presents is that you’re roughly of the equivalent age and you have super similar life experience because you come from the same family. Right.

But you get to view those life experiences through totally different lenses.

Chris:
Yeah.

Nathan:
So it gives you the opportunity to see what you’re experiencing from a different angle. And I think that’s, to a large extent, the utility of these conversations.

Chris:
Yeah, I hope so, too. I hope so, too. So I think with that, we’ll give people an opportunity for some last thoughts, and then we’ll wrap for the day.

Nate, last thoughts.

Nathan:
Just thank you for this opportunity. I’ve never done a podcast.

I’m very much more about experiences these days, and so I’ve very much enjoyed this experience. There’s some topics that came up today that I want to follow up with you on. Yeah.

There’s places in our relationship that I think can still improve. Yeah. You know, we’re works in progress.

So my final thought is not very insightful. It’s really just to thank you for this opportunity, and I’ve really enjoyed myself. Yeah, thanks.

Chris:
Bodhi, final thought.

Bodie:
I guess my final thought would just be like, look at your siblings as allies, not enemies. Yeah. Because they’re the only ones to actually have that similar upbringing and experiences and actually understand them the same way that—not understand them the same way, but differently.

But still, there’s that similarity where no one else is going to understand, where your parents try to understand, but they don’t. It’s really only you and your siblings to have that same upbringing that you can relate. So use your siblings as an ally and not an enemy, and allow yourself to grow with them, not apart.

Chris:
That’s a great thought.
Well said.

Soren:
Yeah. A few years ago, I didn’t think that I would ever be in—well, I didn’t think that I’d be alive, first of all. Second of all, if I continued to live, I didn’t think that I would ever be in a place where I could look at Bodhi in the eye without being grief-stricken because of all the damage that I’d done to him.

And I’m just super grateful that I’ve—and Bodhi’s given me the opportunity to heal and attempt to rekindle the flame of our relationship. And this is a super cool opportunity that we get to have both of you on. So thank you two fellas.

Chris:
Yeah, and that’s my—I’m also in a place of gratitude to just thank you both for your willingness to come and have these conversations and share your thoughts with us and lean into some memories, some good and some not so great. So thank you so much. This has been another episode of the Inspired Insights Podcast.

I’m Chris McGloin.

Soren:
I’m Soren Peterson, and thank you so much for listening.
Have a lovely day.

Chris:
Thanks, you two. Thank you.

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